Don’t Cut What’s Growing Your Camp

Mark and Carl on focusing your growth goals, why cutting marketing or sales to save money can backfire, and what it takes to turn more inquiries into bookings.

Growing your camp is exciting, but it can also get complicated. More campers and guest groups mean more opportunities for ministry, but they can also bring higher expenses, staffing challenges, and new demands on your facilities. Sometimes, even when your camp is making progress, the financial picture doesn’t look as healthy as you expected.

That’s when difficult decisions start showing up. Should you cut marketing to save money? Can someone already on staff handle sales instead of hiring a dedicated salesperson? And if you want to increase revenue, should you try to grow every program and revenue stream at the same time?

In this episode of the Grow Your Camp Podcast, Mark Fisher and Carl Lefever explore why some of those seemingly practical decisions can actually make growth harder. Through real examples from camps they’ve worked with, they discuss how to identify your biggest opportunities, understand what’s really driving revenue, and turn more guest group inquiries into bookings.

They also explore a question that goes beyond finances: What if guest groups aren’t simply a way to support your camp’s ministry, but an important part of that ministry themselves?

The conversation offers a helpful reminder that sustainable camp growth isn’t always about doing more. Sometimes it’s about recognizing what’s already working and being careful not to cut the very things helping your camp move forward.

Quick Camp Marketing Tip: Less Is More

When camp leaders face a challenge, the natural response is often to make a list of everything that needs attention. Maybe registrations are down, guest group bookings are inconsistent, fundraising needs improvement, and expenses are increasing. Before long, you’ve identified a dozen things that could help your camp grow.

The problem comes when you try to tackle all of them at once.

For this episode’s Quick Camp Marketing Tip, Carl introduces the Pareto principle, commonly known as the 80/20 rule. The idea is that a relatively small percentage of causes often accounts for a large percentage of results. The numbers aren’t always exactly 80 and 20, but the underlying principle is useful: some problems and opportunities matter significantly more than others.

“Your problems and opportunities are not equally weighted.” — Carl Lefever

Carl learned this firsthand during his earlier career in process improvement. While working with a fulfillment operation, his team identified 30 different problems affecting shipment quality. Rather than trying to fix all 30, they collected data to determine which problems occurred most frequently.

They discovered that just two problems accounted for approximately 90% of the issues. By concentrating their efforts on those two areas, they reduced quality problems by more than 75%.

The same principle applies to camp growth. You might have ten things you’d like to improve, but two or three of them could account for most of your potential progress.

A Camp That Wanted to Grow Everything

Carl shares an example of a camp generating approximately $2 million in annual revenue. The leadership team wanted to increase revenue by 30% the following year, which was an ambitious but potentially achievable goal.

Their initial strategy, however, was to grow all five of their major revenue streams by 30%. That meant simultaneously pursuing significant growth in camp programs, retreats, guest groups, rentals, and fundraising.

The camp had already missed several growth targets the previous year, so Carl questioned whether trying to accelerate everything at once was the best approach.

He encouraged the team to examine where their greatest opportunities actually existed. When they looked at the numbers, they discovered that guest groups had enough potential to achieve the camp’s entire revenue growth goal on their own.

But there was a catch. Reaching that goal exclusively through guest groups would require approximately 50% growth in that area, creating considerable operational pressure.

Instead, the team identified two revenue streams that could collectively provide a more manageable path toward their overall goal. The strategy was still being developed when Carl shared the story, but the shift in thinking was important.

Rather than expecting every department to grow dramatically, the camp could focus its resources on the areas with the greatest potential.

That’s the practical value of the 80/20 principle. You don’t have to solve every problem or pursue every opportunity at once. By identifying the few things that can make the biggest difference, you give your team a better chance of making meaningful progress.

Guest Groups Are Ministry, Too

Carl’s example leads Mark into a related conversation about the role guest groups play in a camp’s mission.

Mark recalls working with a camp whose traditional programs were declining. By focusing on guest group growth, the camp increased revenue from approximately $1 million to $2.4 million. That additional revenue helped stabilize the organization and avoid layoffs at a time when program revenue wasn’t meeting expectations.

Yet both Mark and Carl have encountered camp leaders who hesitate to prioritize guest groups, even when the financial opportunity is clear. Often, the hesitation comes from how they think about ministry.

When a camp operates its own programs, it controls the teaching, activities, schedule, and overall experience. Guest groups are different. The visiting organization typically provides its own programming and leadership, while the camp provides facilities, activities, meals, and hospitality.

For some leaders, that distinction makes guest groups feel less connected to the camp’s mission. Mark challenges that perspective through a story about a camp that gave guest groups different-colored wristbands from its program campers.

The wristbands identified which activities and facilities guests could use, but they also reflected a broader difference in how people were treated. When a guest group expressed concerns about the food, Mark was troubled by the dismissive attitude that they were only a guest group.

His concern was simple: everyone who visits camp deserves excellent hospitality, regardless of which organization brought them there.

Seeing Ministry Beyond Your Own Programs

Carl admits that he once struggled with this distinction himself. Earlier in his career, he worked at a camp where approximately 80% of revenue came from guest groups, and he initially had difficulty viewing those visits as ministry in the same way he viewed camp-run programs.

A conversation with the camp director helped change his perspective. The director encouraged him to consider how many people were coming through the property and what opportunities those visits created.

Carl began noticing meaningful interactions during activities such as zipline tours. Some visitors came for only a few hours, but the experience still created opportunities for staff to connect with them. A guest’s nervousness about stepping off a zipline platform could lead to a conversation about fear or trust, and sometimes those conversations even opened the door to prayer.

The ministry wasn’t limited to what happened during a scheduled chapel service or a camp-designed program.

That realization helped Carl understand that guest groups and day visitors weren’t simply customers generating revenue. They were people the camp had an opportunity to serve.

For camp leaders, this creates a broader way to think about growth. Filling unused beds or welcoming additional guest groups can improve financial sustainability while also expanding the number of people who experience camp.

Guest groups don’t have to be viewed as the business that pays for the ministry. They can be part of the ministry itself.

Before Cutting Marketing, Understand What’s Actually Driving Revenue

As the conversation turns toward common growth challenges, Carl introduces a problem he calls “blaming the wrong line item.”

When revenue falls short or expenses increase, camp leaders understandably start looking for ways to reduce spending. Marketing is often an attractive target because it’s a visible expense, and the results aren’t always reflected immediately in the bottom line.

But Carl has seen how cutting marketing without understanding the numbers can make a difficult financial situation worse.

The Camp That Nearly Cut Its Marketing Budget

Several years ago, Carl was working with a camp that had been investing in marketing for approximately a year. From a marketing perspective, the results were encouraging. Website traffic was increasing, inquiries were growing, and the camp was consistently reporting new guest group bookings.

In fact, the camp was generating more new group bookings than it ever had before.

So Carl was surprised when the director explained that they were considering ending their marketing investment. Despite the increase in new business, overall revenue had declined by several hundred thousand dollars, and leadership felt pressure to reduce expenses.

Rather than immediately defending the marketing program, Carl asked if they could review the financial records together.

What they discovered changed the conversation.

The revenue decline wasn’t coming from a failure to attract new business. Three or four large guest groups that had booked in previous years hadn’t returned. Losing those groups created a significant financial gap that the new bookings hadn’t yet fully replaced.

In other words, the camp didn’t have a marketing problem. It had lost several major returning customers.

The marketing program was actually helping offset those losses. Without the new groups it had attracted, the camp’s financial position would have been considerably worse.

Why New Bookings Matter Beyond the First Year

As Carl and the leadership team continued examining their records, another pattern emerged. Returning guest groups typically increased their attendance by approximately 10% each year. Some also introduced other ministries within their churches to the camp, while others referred additional churches and organizations.

That meant a new booking could become much more valuable over time. A group that started with a relatively small retreat might return with more attendees, schedule additional events, or recommend the camp to another organization.

Once the leadership team understood that pattern, the value of continuing to attract new groups became much clearer.

They decided to maintain their marketing investment. As the new groups returned and grew, the camp began seeing the revenue improvement Carl had anticipated. The following year, leadership increased its marketing budget, and the organization eventually began pursuing a second location.

Mark highlights an important leadership lesson in this story: sometimes the best decision starts with being willing to question your first assumption.

“Curiosity and humility is what leads to the epic adventures for leaders.” — Mark Fisher

The lesson isn’t that camps should never reduce marketing expenses. There are certainly times when an investment isn’t producing adequate results and needs to change. But before cutting something, leaders need to understand what it’s actually contributing.

Are inquiries increasing? Are those inquiries becoming bookings? Are new groups returning and growing? If revenue is declining, is the problem really marketing, or is something else happening?

Those questions help leaders distinguish between an expense that’s underperforming and an investment that’s helping the camp grow.

Finding the Growth Opportunities Hiding in Your Camp Calendar

The story about the camp that nearly cut marketing illustrates why understanding your numbers matters. But Mark and Carl have found that many camps struggle to identify where their biggest growth opportunities actually exist.

A camp might know its annual revenue, summer enrollment, and number of guest group bookings without knowing how much additional business its facilities could support.

That’s one reason Mark and Carl developed the free Camp Growth Planner, which they demonstrate during the episode.

The planner helps camp leaders evaluate their revenue streams, understand current capacity, and identify opportunities that may be hiding in their calendars.

Rather than assuming every camp should operate at 100% capacity, the assessment considers practical utilization levels and the ways different programs share facilities. A camp can’t fill the same beds with summer campers and overnight guest groups simultaneously, so growth planning has to account for those realities.

The goal is to give leaders a clearer picture of where additional revenue might realistically come from.

What Better Data Can Reveal

During the demonstration, Carl walks through a fictional example called Pinewood Camp and Retreat Center.

The report identifies approximately $760,000 in potential additional revenue from increasing overnight guest group bookings. That opportunity would require attracting more groups and making better use of available facilities.

But the report also reveals another significant possibility: approximately $400,000 in potential revenue from improving the camp’s inquiry-to-booking close rate.

That second opportunity is especially interesting because it doesn’t necessarily require generating more inquiries. It involves doing a better job of converting the inquiries the camp already receives.

Carl explains that a close rate is simply the percentage of inquiries that become confirmed bookings. If a camp receives 100 inquiries and books 20 groups, its close rate is 20%.

Many camps know how many groups booked, but they don’t consistently track how many inquiries came in. Those inquiries may arrive through website forms, phone calls, or emails, making it difficult to understand how many opportunities never turned into bookings.

Carl encourages camps to start with whatever information they have. Even reviewing the previous 30 days can provide a useful baseline.

In his experience, many camps convert approximately 15% to 20% of guest group inquiries into bookings. Experienced, dedicated salespeople may achieve rates closer to 35% to 50%.

In the Pinewood example, improving the close rate from approximately 22% to 50% represented a substantial potential revenue opportunity. These figures are illustrative rather than guaranteed results, but they demonstrate why improving the sales process can be just as valuable as generating more leads.

Looking at Capacity Differently

Mark adds another example of how camps sometimes limit their growth without realizing it.

Imagine a camp with 200 beds and four separate meeting spaces. A group of 50 books a weekend retreat, and the camp reserves the entire property for that group because that’s how it has always operated.

The camp may have legitimate reasons for preferring one group at a time, but it also has 150 unused beds.

If the facilities, staffing, and schedule can accommodate additional groups, those empty beds represent an opportunity to serve more people and generate more revenue.

The same thinking applies to midweek availability, retreat programs, and other underused facilities. Sometimes the biggest opportunities are already sitting on the calendar, waiting for leaders to reconsider established practices.

Mark and Carl encourage listeners to explore the free Camp Growth Planner at GrowYourCampPodcast.com. The assessment helps identify a camp’s leading growth opportunities and suggests areas where operational improvements may make a difference.

And once a camp understands where those opportunities exist, the next challenge is deciding how to capture them.

That leads directly into Mark’s discussion about sales.

Don’t Cut the Sales Engine That’s Bringing in Bookings

One of the biggest mistakes Mark sees camp leaders make is treating sales as an expense to minimize rather than a function that helps generate revenue.

He illustrates the point with an old story about Wrigley’s gum. According to the anecdote, someone asked the company’s president why it continued advertising when everyone already knew the brand. The president compared advertising to the coal powering a train: you don’t stop feeding the engine simply because the train is already moving.

Mark uses that story to challenge a common assumption. When something is helping your organization generate revenue, cutting it may save money in the short term while making it harder to maintain momentum.

He’s seen this happen when camps hesitate to invest in professional sales support, particularly when commissions are involved.

What Happened When One Camp Improved Its Sales Process

Mark shares an example of a camp that was investing in paid advertising to attract guest groups. The marketing was producing inquiries, but relatively few were becoming confirmed bookings.

The person responsible for responding to those inquiries was also managing several other responsibilities around camp. Like many camp employees, they were trying to balance sales with a full workload of administrative and operational tasks.

As a result, consistent follow-up was difficult.

Mark reviewed the camp’s advertising results and found that 188 inquiries had produced just three bookings, representing approximately $50,000 in revenue.

The camp then began using a virtual sales team with experienced salespeople and a more structured approach to managing inquiries.

During a later period, 144 inquiries produced five bookings worth approximately $116,000.

The two periods weren’t identical, so the numbers don’t prove that every dollar of improvement came from the sales team. But they illustrate the potential value of giving sales the attention and expertise it requires.

The camp generated more than twice as much booked revenue from fewer inquiries.

Of course, the virtual sales service wasn’t free. It charged a commission of 10% on the sales it generated.

For some camp leaders, that additional cost would immediately raise concerns. Why pay a commission when someone already on staff could handle the inquiries?

Mark encourages leaders to consider the relationship between cost and revenue. If an investment helps generate substantially more business, eliminating that expense may not improve the camp’s financial position.

Carl also points out that sales and marketing costs can be difficult to evaluate when they’re buried within general operating expenses. Understanding what it costs to acquire and convert bookings can help leadership make better decisions about where to invest.

The goal isn’t simply to spend less. It’s to make sure the camp is spending money in ways that produce meaningful results.

What Makes a Good Camp Salesperson?

Carl asks whether camps can achieve similar results with an internal salesperson rather than an outsourced team.

Mark’s answer is yes, but success depends on having the right person, appropriate training, and a consistent system.

Simply assigning sales responsibilities to a friendly employee doesn’t guarantee they’ll be effective. Camp sales involve more than responding to emails and providing pricing information.

Retreat planners often need time to make decisions. They may have to coordinate schedules, obtain approval from church leadership, manage budgets, or estimate attendance before committing to an event.

That requires a salesperson who can be patient without becoming passive.

Mark describes using a DISC-based assessment to help evaluate sales candidates. Interestingly, he has found that many successful camp salespeople demonstrate strong steadiness traits rather than the highly dominant personalities people often associate with sales.

That makes sense when you consider the customer. A church retreat planner usually doesn’t want a high-pressure sales pitch. They want someone who listens, understands their needs, and helps them work through the details.

Effective follow-up is particularly important.

Mark explains that many sales opportunities require six or seven follow-up attempts, while camps may give up after only one or two. But following up consistently doesn’t mean sending the same “just checking in” email repeatedly.

Good salespeople make each interaction useful. They answer questions, offer alternatives, identify obstacles, and help potential guests move toward a decision.

And sometimes, making that happen requires a little flexibility.

When a Small Pricing Adjustment Made the Difference

Mark shares a story about a group interested in hosting a retreat between Christmas and New Year’s.

The group was large enough to fill a significant portion of the camp’s available capacity, but after receiving a quote, the organizer stopped responding.

During a weekly sales meeting, Mark asked about the opportunity. As the team reviewed the inquiry, they noticed that the group had indicated a budget of approximately $300 per person.

The camp’s published rate was closer to $350–$375.

That difference likely explained why the conversation had stalled.

Mark also considered the timing. The event was only about two and a half months away, and the camp didn’t have another booking for those dates.

Rather than letting the opportunity disappear, he suggested offering a rate of approximately $299 per person.

The salesperson contacted the group with the revised offer, and the group booked.

The lesson wasn’t that camps should discount every event to secure a booking. As Carl points out, a last-minute opportunity for an otherwise empty weekend is very different from a high-demand date a year in advance.

The important point is that salespeople need to understand the camp’s priorities and have enough flexibility to solve problems.

A salesperson who can recognize a pricing obstacle, evaluate available capacity, and make a reasonable offer may turn a stalled inquiry into a valuable booking.

But that only works when leadership has established clear expectations and given the sales team appropriate decision-making authority.

Sales Is Not Set It and Forget It

Mark emphasizes that successful sales require ongoing attention.

“Sales is not set it and forget it.” — Mark Fisher

It’s not enough to publish rates, respond to inquiries, and hope groups eventually book. Camps need a process for tracking opportunities, following up consistently, reviewing performance, and helping salespeople improve.

Mark describes meeting with his sales team weekly to review active opportunities and discuss where people are getting stuck. Those conversations help identify problems early, whether they’re related to pricing, customer questions, scheduling, or follow-up.

They also create opportunities for coaching and accountability.

But Mark makes an important clarification: commissions themselves aren’t the secret to successful sales.

He knows camps generating millions of dollars in bookings without commission-based compensation. What matters is whether they have capable people working within effective systems.

“The magic is systems.” — Mark Fisher

Those systems need to be supported by training, clear goals, regular reviews, and leadership involvement. And camps need to be willing to invest in the people responsible for producing results.

Mark challenges the tendency to underpay talented employees simply because they work in ministry. When capable staff develop valuable skills but can’t earn enough to support their families, camps risk losing them to other organizations.

That turnover can create its own financial and operational challenges.

For Mark, investing in training and fair compensation is part of building a sustainable organization. The right people, equipped with the right systems, can make a significant difference in a camp’s ability to grow.

What This Means for Your Camp

Growth brings challenges, but those challenges don’t necessarily mean your camp is headed in the wrong direction.

Sometimes increasing revenue creates pressure on staffing, facilities, or operating expenses. Sometimes the investments producing new business take time to show their full financial impact. And sometimes the systems that worked when your camp was smaller need to evolve.

Throughout this episode, Mark and Carl return to the importance of understanding what’s actually happening before making major decisions.

Carl’s 80/20 tip reminds leaders that not every opportunity deserves equal attention. The camp that nearly cut its marketing budget shows why it’s essential to understand the causes behind revenue changes. And Mark’s sales examples demonstrate how better follow-up, stronger systems, and trained people can help camps generate more revenue from the interest they’re already receiving.

The common thread is focus.

Rather than trying to solve ten problems at once, identify the two or three that matter most. Rather than cutting an expense because revenue is down, determine whether that investment is helping or hurting. And rather than assuming you need more inquiries, consider whether you could do more with the opportunities already coming through your doors.

Most importantly, remember why growth matters.

Additional revenue can help camps retain staff, maintain facilities, strengthen programs, and welcome more people. And as Mark and Carl discuss earlier in the episode, those additional guests aren’t simply numbers on a financial report. They’re people your camp has an opportunity to serve.

Take the Next Step Toward Sustainable Camp Growth

If you’re planning for the coming year or trying to identify your camp’s biggest opportunities, Mark and Carl encourage you to explore the free Camp Growth Planner.

The assessment helps you evaluate capacity, examine revenue streams, and identify areas where focused improvements could make a meaningful difference. You can also connect with Mark and Carl to discuss your results and explore how to turn those opportunities into a practical Growth Action Plan.

And if this conversation was helpful, share the episode with another camp leader who’s working through the challenges of growth.

You don’t have to solve everything at once. Start with the opportunities that matter most, build on what’s working, and keep moving forward.

Let’s grow camp together.